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Singularity/meta

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Plot DiscussionEdit

The general structure of the novel is described here:

Plot Outline Page

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24.9.80.96: Blue Gene, Blue Brain, etc.....are you interested in making a story that plausible (hard scifi) or are you aiming for Hollywood-level fiction? --JWSchmidt 21:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

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I was hoping to write something that was more hard sf, but was also entertaining in providing a sense of wonder as to what we can technically accomplish in the near future, as well as providing some thriller-like aspects as there will be some people who oppose the singularity or singulitarians (people who are creating the singularity). I would however like there to be in ways of a Hollywood SF for there to be an eventual movie based around the singularity, but which was more pro, instead of anti, like the Terminator or Matrix movies. --Matt Bowron 12:48, 26 February 2006

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The Wiki format might lend itself to a good depiction of "some people who oppose the singularity". For example, you could develop your outlined path to machine itelligence and I could develop a parallel theme for some humans who make use of advanced technology to fully support the biological existence and development of humans (and who do not share the goal of "down-loading" minds). There are some issues that could be worked out within the story; for example, you seem to suggest that a "mathematical model of consciousness" would come before the ability of an AI to "be trained and to learn". To me, this sounds like saying that a mathematical theory of exponential growth would make possible the creation of a fission reactior. It aint that simple. I suspect that any understanding of learning and conciousness will be made possible by working out the details of how brains store and use memories. Paying some attention to such "details" is, for me, what makes the distinction between serious SF and gee-wiz Hollywood fantasy.--JWSchmidt 15:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

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Wikinovellas certainly allow other people to create changes. Originally I actually wanted the story to be normally published, as a book, non-changeable and maybe released under a creative commons licence for free if people wanted to read it, but that's beside the point. The thing is that this story I wrote to help the guys who are singulitarians, whose ideas of existence is running on multiple processes of nanocomputers. Sure, not everyone may not be into that, and thus may not go into a technological or non-biological form of existence. And so that's why this novel is indeed a collaborative piece. People like you and me can write stories based on different perspectives, try to see how the idea of the singularity can be beneficial to people of different ideologies. So there could certainly be a story told by an individual who wants to be more pro-bio, or part of the story could be told by such an individual and have some conflict or at least conversations with those who are non-pro-bio or who are pro-religion, or pro-capitalism for that matter. Oh and by the by, your notes about understanding the brain and how it works, that's what Blue Brain is all about. That's why I put that as the first stage of the singularity, where we figure out how intelligence and consciounsess is, and through simulations of those consciousness models, apply them to computers and let them develop like people (probably won't let them take control of any weapons until way after their second year in my honest opinion, being a time of "terrible twos" and all), but by also running these minds, taught morally righteously of course, faster, they can figure out more problems on consciousness faster, and therefore figure out through added simulations of minds, how to crack the code of consciousness and find out a way to upgrade it. With faster minds, there should be faster development times to create and demonstrate working things such as a fusion reactor, or nanotechnology, or wormholes, faster-than-light travel or anything else we can put our minds to. ALso by understanding human consciousness, we can learn how to deliver information to the mind, thus boosting people's knowledge. You could learn all the things you wanted to learn in school like Neo did in the Matrix. By finding out how consciousness works, we can find out what causes the basics of personality disorders such as schitzophrenia, manic-depression, psychotic episodes, dementia or learning disorders and be able to rewire the brain so that it can work better than ever. By also unlocking how cells work by protein folding under Blue Gene, we could cure cancer, create instant healing from injuries, turn back the clock on aging, or learn how to grow crops in arid soils, make something that looks and taste like chocolate without any side effects but with all the nutritional value the body needs. We could bring back endangered species, bring back extinct species, even create dragons, unicorns or other mythical creatures. It's all incredible that such things like this could become possible, which is the main thing I'm trying to get across in the novel. If you want to add any different opinions, write a chapter and add it into the novel, the more minds and opinions the better. The more wider the audience the book will reach as well, as long as of course, these aren't narrow-minded or silly answers as "the singularity sucks... just because!" --Matt Bowron 13:32, 27 February 2006

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  • I have no interest in "just because".....either pro-singularity or anti-singularity. There is one other fundamental issue that I noticed in your outline: the role for aliens in the story seems rather limited. In your outline, you linked humans and aliens who "do not wish to become post-human", and I would want to fully develop that theme. --JWSchmidt 15:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Well aliens I wanted to have a limited appearance, because I thought something like aliens showing up much earlier was too-much hollywood SF, I thought coming into contact with aliens during the later (vastening) period during part eleven, where the singularity starts spreading to other star systems, is where other alien cultures once translated will be questioned in whether it needs the help of the singularity and then if not, move on, while other individuals within the alien culture would have the freedom to do so. There could be indeed other stories about how some aliens would be given for the first time free choice in societies where some may not exist, and where other alien cultures meet other human cultures and have relationships, friendships or anything else with those who shared similar ideals. But the main point of the story wasn't about whether there were aliens out there or what they would be like, but would be about how the singularity came about on Earth and how it more affected the people on Earth through each of the stages of its development, before it spread to the stars. Certainly there would be other alien cultures mentioned in the final part, but it wouldn't be one of the main points of the story. Other people can always write spin offs based on part eleven, but I more wanted it to be Earth and human based, because that's the audience of the book.,--Matt Bowron 10:01, 28 February 2006

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    • It is a challenge in collaborative fiction to find a set of plot assumptions that more than one person is willing to adopt! I do not want to disrupt your vision for this story....I am trying to find if I can fit in and help. I have no interest in traditional Hollywood aliens, but I am bothered by the Fermi paradox and feel that at the very least some account should be provided for why Earth would have to go OUT THERE before having contact with aliens, particularly if the story plot includes the idea that faster than light travel will be a possibility. --JWSchmidt 15:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Then by all means come and help, if you wish, add some of your own plot developments towards the story (although if that is possible, could these added changes by yourself or others be annotated like this, so that at least some of the general plot ideas i created are still within the story?) Also I was wanting to ask, what do you think overall about the plot i've written so far? is there stuff you like? stuff you dislike? and if anyone else is reading this and wants to participate, by all means do. Just I don't anyone destroying my ideas, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for your ideas as well. THis is more just a technical outline based on realistic technology, like a future historical novel. If anyone has any ideas about characters or settings or other events or points of view within the story add them, but add them like we add our comments within the discussion.,--Matt Bowron 14:28, 1 March 2006

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In my view, the singularity is a worthy topic for exploration through fiction. I think any speculative idea is only as good as the best defense it can offer to its strongest critics. I also think that speculative fiction is best when it directly confronts the existence of its weakest links. I have been trying to suggest ways by which I might constructively poke at what I percieve to be some of the weak links in your outline. It is not my intention to destroy those links, rather, I would hope to strengthen them by forcing them to survive being points of dynamic conflict within the story. The fact that I have been pointing out issues that strike me as "weak links" does not mean that all I can see are "problems". I agree that it would be useful at this point to decide about characters for the setting that will be the opening scene of the story. I wonder if you think it would be possible to start with Part Seven and the perspective of one of the first human-like minds "running" within a simulation (as a place keeper, I'll call this AI "mind" Entity X). Parts 1-6 might then be told through the discovery by Entity X of the technological developments that led to its own creation. --JWSchmidt 14:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Ah, I didn't know why at first why you seemed to be mentioning certain areas in your earlier posts. Now that I understand, I thank you for helping strengthen the story. Your idea of the simulation finding out about it's own existence is interesting, but I just hope that it hasn't been done before, as in The Thirteenth Floor, where a designer of a virtual world finds out he is in a virtual world himself, meanwhile being told as a noir story, where the character is finding out who killed a fellow co-worker who designed the virtual world in his world, before finding out at the end that it was his body who killed it, but the mind belonged to someone from the above world who downloaded into him. However it could be an interesting story, as it can raise many philosophical questions, is god a posthuman for example, does free will or morals exist. Also they could be in a way developing their own virtual world or singularity, sections of part 1 through 6, as it may be a way of creating a more complex singularity, where the virtual people are being run on supertime in order to help figure out humanity's problems. There could also be a sort of government conspiracy thriller thing, where the governement has found out through space travels that their world is a simulation and is trying to keep it under wraps. There could also be scenarios where later those virtual minds could've been cloned minds and stumbles onto a new conspiracy in the real world, where corporations are still struggling against the new AIs that are trying to free the virtual humans in order to help them with their programming in creating a singularity on earth. But then again I don't want this to be like a Matrix or Terminator rip-off either. If these ideas can create an original story, it might work. What do you think of what i've written in response to your idea of a part 7 idea? .,--Matt Bowron 17:53, 2 March 2006

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  • I think you should go for any options that seem fun to you and not worry if other people have had similar ideas. Another issue that concerns me is to what extent AI will open up new options for existence. I feel like many people who are interested in the singularity have a hard time seeing past their egocentric concerns about human existence. Is the singularity a way to satisfy human desires or a path towards new forms of existence that go beyond human nature? In particular, I think it would be interesting if "Entity X" was not really endowed with a human-like mind, inr=troducing a way to explore non-human options that would become possible with AI technology. --JWSchmidt 23:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
  • For some singulitarians it is more egocentric in my opinion, which was why I was hoping also that the singularity could be in ways selfless, helping not just certain people get what they want, but for everyone to benefit equally, no person getting more benefits than another person, all men treated equal, etc. I believe that human-level AIs with their deeper understanding of what drives human beings, can find out how to simply help many human problems get solved. In regards to the story, the concept of the world-as-we-know it or there being a simulated version of the world, raises many philosophical questions, including the big questions everyone wants answered. The idea of the singularity already having occurred can be included into a conspiracy theory of sorts by the government ruling the simulated world, and of course the possibility of whether the singularity occurring within our world will be either a benefit for our world, or whether it will be a benefit to the society that is living in a singularity world (eg, the world could be a simulation run by a capitalist society that has been allowed to run with certain freedoms in the singularity world, but as it happened more by a group of underground individuals who now help keep the secrets of the singularity under lock and key the capitalists could want to learn the secrets of how the singularity came about so that they could take control of that power, and thus there may be interventions from post-humans or AIs that are trying to get control of the singularity or trying to free the simulated humans, which could be through controversial things which further increase speculations about reality or which could be turned into a satirical view of how society is today) .,--Matt Bowron 19:55, 11 March 2006
  • Do any singulitarians have any ideas on how we should progress forward, or have any ideas of their own they'd like to contribute? Not trying to be mean but JWSchmidt and myself can't just write this on our own. .,--Matt Bowron 15:09, 23 March 2006

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Yeah I'm interested... don't know what's going on, though, seeing as how this project seemed to QUIT months ago before even starting. For starters, check out Human Mind Project - it's got a similar idea. --YZHchat/2000+ edits 04:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Where did the Singularity novella go? Edit

Where did the Singularity novella go? I am very, very passionate about the Technological Singularity as posited by Ray Kurzweil and about Nanotechnology and Biotechnology. Jeb 03:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

They obviously quit. If you like it so much, why not try making your own? YZHSig   14:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

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